On one of their outings, they went to the wax museum of Count Deym, Joseph Deym. Let God return peace to your soul and so that you can return to your children and your family. So, he was with them for this whole time, but Josephine's mother was looking for a husband for her daughters and the older one, Therese, well, she sort of had a bit of a crooked back and wasn't that attractive. 6 July, morningMy angel, my all, my own self — only a few words today, and that too with pencil (with yours) — only till tomorrow is my lodging definitely fixed. And then exactly nine months after the letter to the Immortal Beloved, you have her seventh child born, Minona. It is possible that the relation between them was ultimately impossible for the restrictions that the time put on such situations, and then the relation had receded to a spiritual level. MALTZ: So let's move forward. Well… because 'St' is kind of unusual and 'A' is much more common. Josephine was a widow with four young children and Beethoven gave concerts in her house. STEBLIN: After the second world war, the communists came into the Czech Republic and descendants of Josephine – of her son Fritz – fled and they took with them 14 letters that they had in Beethoven's hand. Second Question: Where was the Immortal Beloved letter written? Be calm — love me — today — yesterday. And I had found a letter from Charlotte, the youngest sister who had just gotten married and – this is in 1807 – where she's warning Josephine don't be alone with Beethoven. for (i = 0; i < document.links.length;i++) { MALTZ: This is where the story gets particularly interesting to me and I think to anybody who has an interest in this subject is that there is more to this encounter on July 3rd in Prague in 1812, that Beethoven had with Josephine. What are your thoughts about a DNA test? This question is taken further by Heiligenstadt's theory: we are in the presence of a desperate man, who is writing his final testament, he thinks, to put an end to his days. MALTZ: Right. I mean, because her solution was never taken seriously. STEBLIN: What you get in these 14 love letters and there are drafts of her replies… you see that towards the end, around 1807 Josephine didn't allow Beethoven into her house anymore. And he talks about his love for her and that he's won her heart and that she will make him more productive in his compositions and that she knows he's faithful to her and no other woman can win his heart. This letter was found in Beethoven's estate along with the Heiligenstadt Testament, and it ended up in Schindler's possession. Beethoven has not finished astounding us, surprising us and enchanting us! And this is dated 1818. At my actual age I should need some continuity, sameness of life — can that exist under our circumstances? Beethoven’s missives to this “immortal beloved,” which include the only known love letter of his to use the informal German du for “you” rather than the formal Sie, were found among his personal effects; they were never mailed — a beautiful and tragic testament to the fact that their affair, like all affairs, was both bedeviled and vitalized by the awareness that the two lovers could never fully … But, I decided to look at the problem again from a new angle and to look at that word kennen and thought, okay, if you view it in the biblical sense of to know a woman, sleep with her. And why did he keep it? The apparently unsent letter was found in the composer's estate following his death, after which it remained in the hands of Anton Schindler until his death, was subsequently willed to his sister, and was sold by her in 1880 to the Berlin State Library, where it remai… MALTZ: So, as we mentioned, Josephine Brunsvik as the Immortal Beloved. Love demands everything and is quite right, so it is for me with you, for you with me — only you forget so easily, that I must live for you and for me — were we quite united, you would notice this painful feeling as little as I should . MALTZ: And this would explain how in the fall, Beethoven returning to Vienna, sees a happily-married Josephine with Stackelberg and writes, “Auf diese Art mit 'St' geht alles zu Grunde.”, STEBLIN: That's right. Was it 1819 or 1820, I believe… where somebody writes to Beethoven about this musical child. 8:19. . Our guest, musicologist Dr. Rita Steblin, finally identifies the correct woman. After 1818, he would have had charge of his nephew Karl, when it is not at all likely that he would have written such a letter. Get all my new content in one monthly email newsletter. Your love made me the happiest and unhappiest at the same time. Before, he did not live in Vienna, and he states the fact that he lives there in his letter. Then, 20 years later, he redated it 1803. And so they were looking for a woman whose first name started with 'A.' However, a visit to Teplitz was thought to have been made in 1812, notably because his name is inscribed on the list of hydrotherapy patients on July 7th, the time of his finding a house and his meeting with Goethe being largely accounted for and proven. They're all saying there's no proof that there was any contact between Josephine and Beethoven later on. Beethoven still has them waiting and hoping in vain to be able to open his secrets. In fact, it was an earlier woman who actually, in my mind, solved the mystery. He would loathe such a treasonous act. Good night — as I am taking the waters, I must go to bed. Its content is sugar sweet, the recipient unknown: "Love demands everything. The letter was found amongst the composers things after his death. MALTZ: Let's get to the evidence you discovered. Immortal Beloved is a biographical account of Ludwig van Beethoven's (Gary Oldman) life and loves, in the form of a fictionalized treatment of an enigmatic letter to his "immortal beloved" that was found after his death. For the best experience, please watch the video at the top of the page. It is equally curious to see how the theorists are split into two clearly visible groups in their proposition of my Immortal Beloved: the English and the Americans, more in favor of Antonie Brentano, and the Germans, French and other Europeans, more in favor of Joséphine von Brunsvik. It was written to an unknown woman who Beethoven simply called his … - Could a child have been born from this union - could there not be, somewhere, the descendants of the great Beethoven who are ignorant of their origins? Everything in Immortal Beloved revolves around the mysterious letter 'An die unsterbliche Geliebte', which was found after Beethoven's death in 1827. She had many relatives from her first husband in Prague and after Deym's death, she took all her four children to speak with the Emperor Franz. In 1909, W. A. Thomas San Galli was the first to date the letter 1812. What abominable waste of time in such things — why this deep grief, where necessity speaks? So, I contacted the health agency, the Gesundheitsamt – they're responsible for grave sites and found out what I could. Updated March 17, 2017 Beethoven's love letter is very famous and often quoted in literary media as well as television, movies, and commercials. so far! So! What is the evidence that this encounter took place and what clues place Josephine in Prague at this time? O God, why must one go away from what one loves so, and yet my life in W. as it is now is a miserable life. In the end, he does not commit suicide (just as well for the sake of music), but he keeps this call of distress for 25 years, until his death, with the letter for his Immortal Beloved…. But knowing Fritz had said end of April that they'd already gotten to Baden, there I found – in an earlier list – Josephine. MALTZ: You mentioned in one of your articles that Minona is buried in Vienna's Central Cemetery. Before, he did not live in Vienna, and he states the fact that he lives there in his letter. Oh God — so near! The descriptions of the appearance of his internal organs were carefully made and recorded. The earliest… The problem person would be her husband, that he's the one that's causing all the problems for Beethoven. And I think that was to declare his paternity, but instead he didn't want to cause a scandal for Josephine. It is completely coated in dark chocolate and is decorated with gold leaf. Can our love persist otherwise than through sacrifices, than by not demanding everything? Born in December 1770, he was baptized on the 17th. The Beethoven Immortal Beloved letter was found after Beethoven's death at the same time as "Heiligenstadt's Testament" is made up of two double pages, written on both sides, (8 pages), of about 200 x 238 mm and on a single sheet of about 201 x 119 mm both sides. Final scene from the movie "Inmortal beloved" about Beethoven's life. And this money was now due, and Stackelberg had left Josephine. You have the same sort of wording in these earlier love letters and the letter to the Immortal Beloved where he says, ‘you know I have been faithful to you that no other woman can...’, MALTZ: To clarify for those who don't speak German, please explain the significance of Beethoven referring to Josephine as 'du' instead of the formal 'Sie. Woven into the story is Jessica Duchen’s favoured theory (supported by many other scholars) as to the identity of the woman addressed as ‘Immortal Beloved’ in Beethoven’s letter. Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) was a German composer and pianist, who is arguably the defining figure in the history of Western music. But, she was already in her eighties and died soon after. This obsession was evident in the way –after his death-- his body was studied, in a most meticulous autopsy. MALTZ: Especially a married woman, I imagine. The proposed possibilities as to the identity of this mystery woman are numerous, indeed too numerous for one man! And he later said that as soon as he saw Josephine he said she is going to be my wife. In it, he writes of his unconditional love and devotion to someone he refers to as his Unsterbliche Geliebte, or Immortal Beloved. If someone has only read his diaries, his letters, his moral writings… He would consider such an act, a terrible dishonorable behavior. And then they said, pietätlos, there's no piety because you'd have to exhume Beethoven as well to make a study. And so she was in a sense forced to marry this baron. This Immortal Beloved letter by Beethoven is dated Monday July 6th. . Who is this Immortal Beloved? To be more exact, Beethoven in fact wrote to 'The immortal loved one' and not 'The Immortal Beloved'. The story of Beethoven's life, mostly his private life in this case, is told in flashbacks as his friend and executor of his will, Anton Schindler (Jeroen Krabbe) sets out to find the mysterious Immortal Beloved, the recipient of a passionate love letter written by the composer. MALTZ: And it sends people down the wrong track for hundreds of years. Immortal Beloved. Long after his death he was exhumed twice, his bones and skull were measured and weighed again, and then photographed when it was finally possible… It is as if those men cherished the hope to find some kind of clue. It is certain that nothing will stop the researchers and scholars of this question. In any case, if one day this great mystery were to be solved by an indisputable proof, would we find our appreciation of the works of Beethoven and of the man, himself changed? Learn more about the era of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven from my videos and podcast interviews with other Vienna-based performers and experts. STEBLIN: Yes. STEBLIN: Yes. He was not having a spa treatment in this city of water. Dr. Steblin, why has the idea of Beethoven's Immortal Beloved captured imaginations for almost 200 years? Third Question: Of which towns does he speak of in the my Immortal Beloved letters? STEBLIN: Exactly. Beethoven) biographers are worried about this because practically none of the supposed women was ever addressed in this manner by Beethoven. Angel, I just hear that the post goes out every day — and must close therefore, so that you get the L. at once. He HAD loved her before, so he might have loved her still in 1812. The Immortal Beloved can be at ease, her secret is well kept... Generally speaking, I widely agree with Dom’s opinions on the my Immortal Beloved matter. Then it fits Josephine. She was now running this museum and he continued to give her lessons. Anyway, I believe that the question about WHY so much ink has been used in writing about the identity of the woman Beethoven loved can have an answer. if (document.links[i].href.indexOf("/recommended/") != -1) { Solve the long-disputed mystery of Beethoven’s Immortal Beloved, Unearth details of this woman’s life and her irresistible charm, Understand why Beethoven never sent the letter, Be shocked by the surprising end result of this romance. STEBLIN: When I was a piano teacher in Vancouver for seven years, I read the book by Marie-Elisabeth Tellenbach on Josephine Brunsvik as the Immortal Beloved. What is your view about this? Brighten up — remain my true and only treasure, my all, as I to you. The first is easy: "... my life in W. is now a miserable life...". This letter is one of the most famous documents in the legacy of the great German composer Ludwig van Beethoven (1770–1827). Beethoven was known to love many women, and as his friend F.G. Wegeler once wrote, "Beethoven was never out of love." Mondays — Thursdays — the only days, when the post goes from here to K. You suffer — oh! And I also found another letter from Therese to Josephine. STEBLIN: Exactly. My bosom is full, to tell you much — there are moments when I find that speech is nothing at all. Don't let him into your house. It would have meant that there had been an intimate love relationship. So this was late 1819 and, exactly at that point in Beethoven's conversation books, someone is asking him and writing out, ‘You talk so much about the woman that her husband is going to suspect that the child among his children that has musical talent is your child.’ I mean this is great proof. For example, his brain was obsessively measured, weighed and described (with most interesting results we might add). And Beethoven had said ‘Yes, five years ago. Therefore, the question is: is this form of speech, as it is used today, being used the same way in which it was two hundred years ago? And I had heard that the grave site was up for sale. Copyright © 2021 Daniel Adam Maltz. Oh, God, look into beautiful Nature and compose your mind to the inevitable. But, in this case, why not? I'm going back to Vienna.’ And so that's why he never sent the letter. As I say, you can't at this point determine fatherhood, but maybe there are other ways. Written by Smoothhoney1265 Plot Summary | Plot Synopsis STEBLIN: Well, the letter itself is one of the most passionate letters that anyone has ever written and certainly the most passionate by a composer. And it wasn't until 1860 when he brought out another edition of his Beethoven biography with a facsimile of the letter that people could see… Oh, Julie isn't even mentioned in Beethoven's letter. I mean, I can't afford to pay to have her bones, her remains exhumed. So Josephine was very charming, very beautiful. You will receive future monthly newsletter emails. And so that's where it remained. Finding the answer required cross-referencing 200-year-old letters, diaries, memoirs, as well as other documents to find clues. The entire letter is written on 10 small pages, in Beethoven's rather inconsistent handwriting. The letter was discovered after Beethoven's death and, naturally, sparked intense curiosity about what woman inspired such passion. Well, the emperor was in Prague on July 1st and so I think that she wanted to try to solve these financial problems by speaking with the emperor and speaking with relatives of her husband. And then working on her papers in Jindrichuv Hradec, I found some diaries, not really chronological, but some of the entries are June 1812 and one of the entries says, ‘I want to speak to Liebert in Prague.’ And we also know from her sister Therese's memoirs that Josephine had made a plan for 1812. He says, and don't hide yourself from me. MALTZ: People love a story, right? And so Therese certainly spent the summer of 1812 taking care of the children in a villa in Hucking, and so where was Josephine? MALTZ: So up to this point, we've discussed Beethoven longing after Josephine for years, a surprise encounter where they spent the night together in Prague and the Immortal Beloved letter that Beethoven never sent, where he pleaded for Josephine to find a way for them to be together. However, others have different ideas, such as the town of Klosterneuburg, a small town about 10 kilometers north of Vienna. As baptisms customarily took place the day following birth consensus is that the world’s greatest composer was born December 16, 1770. It comes from Fanny Giannatasio del Rio in September of 1816 when she wrote down a snippet of a conversation she overheard between Beethoven and her father on a walk in Baden. Just now I perceive that letters must be posted first thing early. Beethoven proves that art offers something beyond the physical or the material world. document.links[i].href += "?js=yes"; Researchers have been divided as to whom was the intended recipient. He never sent this letter. Written in pencil, it is addressed to an unknown woman with whom Beethoven was apparently in a love relationship and to whom he refers at one point as his "Immortal Beloved." MALTZ: We're skipping forward now, there was another cryptic comment that has stumped Beethoven researchers for years. And it was there that they met Stackelberg, who was an Estonian baron. Who was Beethoven’s Immortal Beloved, the unknown woman mentioned in a passionate letter discovered after Beethoven’s death? And he talks about how they had a wonderful summer 1816 in Baden and, Marie-Elisabeth Tellenbach had already found in the spa lists, Josephine's entry later that summer. First Question: When was the letter written? They want to feel like they're a part of it. STEBLIN: Well the name comes from Ossian, that Gaelic Bard, and appears in Goethe Sorrows of Young Werther, and is the daughter of a musician. And we know that Beethoven met unexpectedly someone in Prague because in a letter later to Varnhagen von Ense, he apologizes for not having kept an appointment that he had made on the evening of July the 3rd. I'm your host Daniel Adam Maltz. Beethoven's love letters to his immortal beloved, 1812 L udwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) was a German composer and pianist. And just recently the business manager of the Beethoven House in Bonn, Malte Böcker, wanted to have all of my correspondence with this Gesundheitsamt because, in the end, it was sort of like… well, who's going to pay for this? } And these are love letters from Beethoven to Josephine that he wrote between about 1804 and 1809 – this was the period after Deym had died. Dr. Steblin, I would like to thank you personally for your research. This letter is a touching and passionate love letter, written to someone who he loves and who clearly loves him back. Well, here you have 1818. The echoes of this love are listened along the years, in so much of his musical works. } And, what I'm doing right now is to search further in the papers of the Brunsvik family for letters that Minona, herself, wrote or comments about her. This Immortal Beloved letter by Beethoven is dated Monday July 6th. She was in her eighties in 1920 when she brought out the book. When Schindler first met Beethoven, the composer explained the meaning behind a new sonata, and many years later, it turned out to be reflective of events mentioned in the “immortal beloved” letter. Other theories were made, giving diverse answers between 1801 et 1807. Good morning, on 7 JulyEven in bed my ideas yearn towards you, my Immortal Beloved, here and there joyfully, then again sadly, awaiting from Fate, whether it will listen to us. The identity of Beethoven’s “Immortal Beloved” (more accurately translated as “Eternally Beloved”) has confounded historians for two centuries and even inspired a movie. Beethoven once threw marriage proposal on Therese Malfatti, which got rejected. And Josephine wanted to go again to Karlsbad. And I think this name, Minona, as the daughter of a musician is of significance. She even applied for a pass to go to Italy with him and the children and so on. This is much later where she's recommending that they go for a holiday together and she says, we could go to Naples, we could go to Brazil, or we could go to England with Beethoven. They'd be gone forever. This question has obsessed people for almost 200 years. I mean, DNA studies are improving. And I discovered that Josephine got pregnant and her fifth child was illegitimate, Maria Laura. MALTZ: So this speaks to Josephine's magnetic appeal. Beethoven "Immortal Beloved" Letters/"Emperor" 2nd Movement - Duration: 8:19. And what I have found is that she was musical and that they were hoping that she could make a living as a musician. And these DNA studies… well, if 50% of Minona's bones come from Estonia, well then Stackelberg is the father, but if 50% come from Bonn, well then that would prove it. Is it not a real building of heaven, our Love — but as firm, too, as the citadel of heaven. STEBLIN: Well, she does admit that she was at some distance and was trying to listen in onto this conversation. Once the date has been decided, the place follows naturally: Beethoven went for hydrotherapy at Teplitz (Teplice - about 80 km North-West of Prague). That is why the American hypothesis about the Immortal Beloved letter is completely unacceptable, absolutely psychologically unlikely. She was the dedicatee of the Moonlight Sonata. function init() { His ideas and hypothesis are most perceptive and sensitive. I mean, maybe he thought there'd be this scandal about the paternity or he wanted to undertake a Große Handlung or something. Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. So who knows? It's believed that Beethoven had a surprise encounter with his Immortal Beloved in Prague on July 3rd, 1812, just three days before the 'Immortal Beloved' letter is written. Without you — pursued by the kindness of the people here and there, whom I mean — to desire to earn just as little as they earn — humility of man towards men — it pains me — and when I regard myself in connection with the Universe, what I am, and what he is — whom one calls the greatest — and yet — there lies herein again the godlike of man. IMMORTAL BELOVED Beethoven’s Love Letters On This Page The Immortal Beloved Letters The Early Candidates for the Immortal Beloved The Later Candidates Recent Theories Letters to Unknown Women Once upon a time in old Vienna, the great composer Ludwig von Beethoven passed away quietly at his home. I mean, I can't say that I was the first to come up with Josephine. I think that the riddle of the Immortal Beloved letter is something of this kind of issue. 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